Ace25
Aug 26, 04:10 PM
I am now pretty sure that new MacBooks are being released in the next few days.
I ordered one on the 17th of august and it was scheduled to ship on the 24th of august. Then for some reason it was bumped to a new ship date of august 31st, just enough time to drop a new merom processor in it!
I ordered one on the 17th of august and it was scheduled to ship on the 24th of august. Then for some reason it was bumped to a new ship date of august 31st, just enough time to drop a new merom processor in it!
KingYaba
Aug 17, 09:02 AM
Well the Quad is still the fastest when it comes to CS2. But man, once those are intel native that thing is going to fly at lightspeed.
MacBoobsPro
Jul 20, 09:43 AM
As for your theoretical 24GHz processor, such a thing is simply not possible with today's technology.
Just stating 'I knew that' I just used it as an example. Chundles gets confused easily so I have to make things simple. Hi Chundles :D
Just stating 'I knew that' I just used it as an example. Chundles gets confused easily so I have to make things simple. Hi Chundles :D
GuitarDTO
Mar 31, 07:47 PM
Polished like the pure Google, "optimized from the ground up for tablets" Honeycomb running on the XOOM right now?
Yikes.
No...polished like Android 2.2 vs. 1.0. I think my Droid had 2.0 when I got it, and just going from 2.0 to 2.1 to 2.2 they made huge strides. Google will get it right, and this is just another step towards that. Has iOS always had the polish that it has currently? (Asking honestly, I'm new to iPhone).
Yikes.
No...polished like Android 2.2 vs. 1.0. I think my Droid had 2.0 when I got it, and just going from 2.0 to 2.1 to 2.2 they made huge strides. Google will get it right, and this is just another step towards that. Has iOS always had the polish that it has currently? (Asking honestly, I'm new to iPhone).
DisMyMac
Apr 5, 07:11 PM
Is there any hope for good subtitle support? OCR, etc.?
VanNess
Aug 5, 06:28 PM
I have my money on 06.
Show me the money! (lol)
In addition to the aforementioned reasons why it won't see the light of day until 07, Apple will gauge reaction to Leopard (both public and developer) and use the remainder of 06 to further tweak, well, whatever is going to be in Leopard. That takes us to Macworld in January, and another major, prime time opportunity to hype/showboat Leopard to the masses and further tease anxious Macheads to the point where sales will go through the roof when it hits the stores.
Recall that Tiger features saw significant UI overhauls (Dashboard, Spotlight, Automator) from the original Tiger demos at WWDC until it's reshowing at Macworld. Apple has no reason to rush this out after WWDC.
You can bank on 07. First Half. No sooner than April.
Show me the money! (lol)
In addition to the aforementioned reasons why it won't see the light of day until 07, Apple will gauge reaction to Leopard (both public and developer) and use the remainder of 06 to further tweak, well, whatever is going to be in Leopard. That takes us to Macworld in January, and another major, prime time opportunity to hype/showboat Leopard to the masses and further tease anxious Macheads to the point where sales will go through the roof when it hits the stores.
Recall that Tiger features saw significant UI overhauls (Dashboard, Spotlight, Automator) from the original Tiger demos at WWDC until it's reshowing at Macworld. Apple has no reason to rush this out after WWDC.
You can bank on 07. First Half. No sooner than April.
valkraider
Apr 25, 03:48 PM
Apple has just brought us the closest we have EVER been to 1984.
Complete fail.
Mainly - you have the option to not buy or use an iPhone. Or any phone for that matter.
You have no idea how technology works, do you?
First of all, ever since the very first cell phones - anyone carrying ANY cell phone is being tracked.
Second, you are tracked HUNDREDS of ways! Credit cards, Bank accounts, store loyalty programs, car black boxes, GPS units, traffic cameras, security cameras, internet use, video game networks, etc etc...
Third: Apple is not the government. The government has to follow specific rules about tracking people (like warrants, etc). Apple is a private corporation that you WILLINGLY entered into a contractual agreement with. Every iPhone user has accepted a terms of service which says that location information will be stored. Period. There is no invasion of anything - if you activated an iPhone YOU AGREED TO IT WILLINGLY.
Fourth: NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN. So many people act like all we want in the world is to find out that you went to 7/11 last thursday and got a bag of doritos. No one but 7/11 and Doritos cares, and they already know...
Fifth: All of the people crying foul have not even looked at the real data. The real data is wildly inaccurate from a location tracking standpoint. So you are all bitching about someone knowing where you have been within a mile or two. Unless you are in rural Nevada or Wyoming, there are several other people and lots of possible "locations" in that square few miles. If you are in rural Nevada or Wyoming there are no AT&T towers there to register your location against so you are safe too.
Sixth: If you really really care, jailbreak your phone and delete the file.
Complete fail.
Mainly - you have the option to not buy or use an iPhone. Or any phone for that matter.
You have no idea how technology works, do you?
First of all, ever since the very first cell phones - anyone carrying ANY cell phone is being tracked.
Second, you are tracked HUNDREDS of ways! Credit cards, Bank accounts, store loyalty programs, car black boxes, GPS units, traffic cameras, security cameras, internet use, video game networks, etc etc...
Third: Apple is not the government. The government has to follow specific rules about tracking people (like warrants, etc). Apple is a private corporation that you WILLINGLY entered into a contractual agreement with. Every iPhone user has accepted a terms of service which says that location information will be stored. Period. There is no invasion of anything - if you activated an iPhone YOU AGREED TO IT WILLINGLY.
Fourth: NO ONE CARES WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN. So many people act like all we want in the world is to find out that you went to 7/11 last thursday and got a bag of doritos. No one but 7/11 and Doritos cares, and they already know...
Fifth: All of the people crying foul have not even looked at the real data. The real data is wildly inaccurate from a location tracking standpoint. So you are all bitching about someone knowing where you have been within a mile or two. Unless you are in rural Nevada or Wyoming, there are several other people and lots of possible "locations" in that square few miles. If you are in rural Nevada or Wyoming there are no AT&T towers there to register your location against so you are safe too.
Sixth: If you really really care, jailbreak your phone and delete the file.
Blue Velvet
Mar 23, 04:03 PM
Is it your position that Libya represents a larger danger to American assets/security than Iraq?
American assets and security are deeply entwined with Nato. An emboldened Gaddafi would encourage the continued use of repression across the region, thus destabilising it even more. He would also probably renew his threats towards the West, bearing in mind the downing of Pan Am Flight 103. Gaddafi was also actively and genuinely pursuing weapons of mass destruction until the Gulf War bought him to heel.
These are just a few reasons that immediately come to mind from someone with only a surface reading of media that aren't parroting the conservative line, you should try it some time. I'm sure those who know more about the geopolitics of the region can outline more...
Why you keep on referring to Iraq when the scale of action in scope of resources and time isn't remotely on the size of the Iraq invasion, is a complete mystery. If you're attempting to make this Obama's 'Iraq' folly, then you will fail. This will be off the front pages of US papers in terms of US engagement within a week or two.
As for asking why not North Korea, I'm staggered you could even make a nonsensical comparison. A nuclear-armed nation bordering China?
"It is in America’s national interests to participate . . . because no one has a bigger stake in making sure that there are basic rules of the road that are observed, that there is some semblance of order and justice, particularly in a volatile region that’s going through great changes," Obama said
http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2011/03/23/obama_insists_actions_in_libya_serve_us_interests/
Translated: Above all, we want an arc of governmental and societal stability from North Africa to Afghanistan in order to protect oil supplies and our commitments to Israel.
What I personally expect is people to stand on principles, and not on parties. What I expect is that people live their lives in a honorable way and present a consistent philosophy.
Even though that philosophy might be bereft of any factual basis? You have an important lesson in life ahead of you:
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
American assets and security are deeply entwined with Nato. An emboldened Gaddafi would encourage the continued use of repression across the region, thus destabilising it even more. He would also probably renew his threats towards the West, bearing in mind the downing of Pan Am Flight 103. Gaddafi was also actively and genuinely pursuing weapons of mass destruction until the Gulf War bought him to heel.
These are just a few reasons that immediately come to mind from someone with only a surface reading of media that aren't parroting the conservative line, you should try it some time. I'm sure those who know more about the geopolitics of the region can outline more...
Why you keep on referring to Iraq when the scale of action in scope of resources and time isn't remotely on the size of the Iraq invasion, is a complete mystery. If you're attempting to make this Obama's 'Iraq' folly, then you will fail. This will be off the front pages of US papers in terms of US engagement within a week or two.
As for asking why not North Korea, I'm staggered you could even make a nonsensical comparison. A nuclear-armed nation bordering China?
"It is in America’s national interests to participate . . . because no one has a bigger stake in making sure that there are basic rules of the road that are observed, that there is some semblance of order and justice, particularly in a volatile region that’s going through great changes," Obama said
http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2011/03/23/obama_insists_actions_in_libya_serve_us_interests/
Translated: Above all, we want an arc of governmental and societal stability from North Africa to Afghanistan in order to protect oil supplies and our commitments to Israel.
What I personally expect is people to stand on principles, and not on parties. What I expect is that people live their lives in a honorable way and present a consistent philosophy.
Even though that philosophy might be bereft of any factual basis? You have an important lesson in life ahead of you:
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?
CaoCao
Mar 3, 10:05 PM
Well Catholic people believe its a Sin to be gay, and in fear of parents saying anything about a gay man teaching their kids....Well being gay and teaching at a religious school and being gay just doesnt work...that sucks though for him
Being gay is not a sin, homosexual actions are a sin.
Bill, it's OK to react emotionally. We're people, not robots. :)
Query: How do meat bags such as yourself live with such amounts of water sloshing around in you?
Being gay is not a sin, homosexual actions are a sin.
Bill, it's OK to react emotionally. We're people, not robots. :)
Query: How do meat bags such as yourself live with such amounts of water sloshing around in you?
Patch^
Sep 13, 06:52 AM
cool!! They should hopefully increase speed :)
I like the fact that you can upgrade the processors now, but Xeons are pretty expensive.
I like the fact that you can upgrade the processors now, but Xeons are pretty expensive.
Tomaz
Aug 7, 07:10 PM
Did anyone else think it was odd that many of the features seemed so poorly presented. We didn't actually get to see anything new in Spotlight. And no new features of the actual Dashboard were even discussed.
It just doesn't seem that Leopard is as far along as Tiger was when previewed even though Leopard is suppose to ship in the spring just as Tiger did.
Maybe they moved the spotlight bar to the top left and don't want MS to do the same before the Vista release ;)
It just doesn't seem that Leopard is as far along as Tiger was when previewed even though Leopard is suppose to ship in the spring just as Tiger did.
Maybe they moved the spotlight bar to the top left and don't want MS to do the same before the Vista release ;)
gauriemma
Aug 25, 08:06 PM
and there was a lot of confusion as to what batteries were affected.
Right. Because the whole "if your battery's serial number falls within this range, this range, or this range" concept was so terribly difficult to grasp.
Right. Because the whole "if your battery's serial number falls within this range, this range, or this range" concept was so terribly difficult to grasp.
Huntn
Aug 16, 10:20 AM
As I am newly familiar with Need For Sped: Shift. How would you guys compare the two games?
I don't know if it is my imagination but some of the racing demos I've tried, the cars seem to skid out of control relatively easily. I'm wondering if this is a characteristic of "realsim" in a racing game?
I don't know if it is my imagination but some of the racing demos I've tried, the cars seem to skid out of control relatively easily. I'm wondering if this is a characteristic of "realsim" in a racing game?
GregA
Mar 26, 08:06 PM
does anyone else thing launchpad is the worst idea yet?
I did, until I saw why they were doing it.
On the iPad or Mac, whatever you're doing you'll be able to pinch your 5 fingers together (or press the home button on iPad or iPhone) and it'll bring up your apps so you can launch something else. It's just a consistency thing.
He was being that literal: "Step 2 may very well be the one & only Apple OS - based on iOS." This is absurd. Obviously OS X is taking cues from iOS. As you say, they've said so. But that's all that they are doing.
Well, cues in the interface, and the same underlying OS. That's all it is for now. Mac OSX has a lot of extra options.
(Now, might a Mac at some point use iOS in some way? Sure. Imagine a trackpad that was basically an iPod touch, or being able to fold our MacBook screens flat, which would boot iOS and turn it into an iPad. I'm sure Apple has some interesting things cooking in their labs. But OS X as we know it isn't disappearing.)
There's a group of doom and gloom people on these boards that believe OS X will go away and we'll have one OS which we'll poking at our screens with no access to the underlying file system and we'll have to start jailbreaking our Macs. This line of thinking is idiotic.
iOS has to grow up, especially with respect to File Management. I think iOS 5 will go a long way in this area.
Once we get to iOS 6 I think we may start seeing iOS as the default Mac OS, with an optional OSX install (like X11 is) that extends it to do everything we expect from OSX (access to the file systems etc., perhaps even required for installation of non-app store programs). It may even be something where someone with "administrator" privileges gets the OSX add ons, while standard users do not.
I did, until I saw why they were doing it.
On the iPad or Mac, whatever you're doing you'll be able to pinch your 5 fingers together (or press the home button on iPad or iPhone) and it'll bring up your apps so you can launch something else. It's just a consistency thing.
He was being that literal: "Step 2 may very well be the one & only Apple OS - based on iOS." This is absurd. Obviously OS X is taking cues from iOS. As you say, they've said so. But that's all that they are doing.
Well, cues in the interface, and the same underlying OS. That's all it is for now. Mac OSX has a lot of extra options.
(Now, might a Mac at some point use iOS in some way? Sure. Imagine a trackpad that was basically an iPod touch, or being able to fold our MacBook screens flat, which would boot iOS and turn it into an iPad. I'm sure Apple has some interesting things cooking in their labs. But OS X as we know it isn't disappearing.)
There's a group of doom and gloom people on these boards that believe OS X will go away and we'll have one OS which we'll poking at our screens with no access to the underlying file system and we'll have to start jailbreaking our Macs. This line of thinking is idiotic.
iOS has to grow up, especially with respect to File Management. I think iOS 5 will go a long way in this area.
Once we get to iOS 6 I think we may start seeing iOS as the default Mac OS, with an optional OSX install (like X11 is) that extends it to do everything we expect from OSX (access to the file systems etc., perhaps even required for installation of non-app store programs). It may even be something where someone with "administrator" privileges gets the OSX add ons, while standard users do not.
LagunaSol
Apr 6, 04:10 PM
That didn't actually happen.
But he did mention the iPad does not run a tablet OS (talking point achievement accomplished!), so Google gives him a cookie for that!
But he did mention the iPad does not run a tablet OS (talking point achievement accomplished!), so Google gives him a cookie for that!
^squirrel^
Jul 15, 02:21 PM
Good: Dual-Core 2GHz Intel Xeon, 512MB DDR 667, ATI Radeon X1600 Pro, 250GB Hard Drive,$1799
Better: Dual-Core 2.33GHz Intel Xeon, 1GB DDR2 667, ATI Radeon X1800 Pro, 320GB Hard Drive, $2499
Best: Two Dual-Core 2.66 Intel Xeon, 1GB DDR2 667, ATI Radeon X1800 Pro, 320GB Hard Drive, $3299
I wonder if i'll be able to upgrade to the X1900?
Better: Dual-Core 2.33GHz Intel Xeon, 1GB DDR2 667, ATI Radeon X1800 Pro, 320GB Hard Drive, $2499
Best: Two Dual-Core 2.66 Intel Xeon, 1GB DDR2 667, ATI Radeon X1800 Pro, 320GB Hard Drive, $3299
I wonder if i'll be able to upgrade to the X1900?
DoogieWoogie
Nov 29, 03:37 PM
I don't usually rate threads negative or positive but this time I'll make an exception - NEGATIVE. This is bad news.
milo
Jul 14, 03:21 PM
Except Conroes don't support dual processor configuration. Woodcrest does, hence the reason it will be in the Pro line machines while Conroe is put into new iMacs.
So why use woodcrest WITHOUT dual processor configuration? Makes no sense, any single proc models should be conroe.
- copying DVDs - you can't legally copy 99% of DVDs anyway, if there was no need for twin CD drives, why would there suddenly be for DVDs?
- burning two at once - few people need this, and it's a great sales opportunity for a Firewire external burner anyway. Hell, why stop at TWO?
- Blu-ray - not unless they're really screwed up BR and drives with BR will be incompatible with existing media or something.
Against this, you have the confusion generated by a Mac with two optical drives. I have a Mac with two optical drives (an in-built combo drive, and a FW DVD burner), and it's not terribly elegant. It's fine when reading disks (obviously), but writing them generates some confusion. How sure am I that I'm burning to the right drive? I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying this would be unbelievably un-Mac like. It'd be like the next version of iTunes coming with a menu at the top of its window.
Macs have ALREADY had two optical bays (including twin CD drives). And none of these configs include two drives, you'd only have a second one if you wanted it.
Copying DVD's, nowadays people are backing up their own materials. Most dvd copying would be making backups of your own discs. Burning multiple discs would be a great option as well. And bluray drives will be INCREDIBLY expensive when these machines ship, not to mention who knows how well they will burn cd's and dvd's (assuming that all bluray drives will be burners, none of them readers only). Many people will want to wait and add a bluray or hd-dvd later, especially since nobody knows which will be the winning format.
So why use woodcrest WITHOUT dual processor configuration? Makes no sense, any single proc models should be conroe.
- copying DVDs - you can't legally copy 99% of DVDs anyway, if there was no need for twin CD drives, why would there suddenly be for DVDs?
- burning two at once - few people need this, and it's a great sales opportunity for a Firewire external burner anyway. Hell, why stop at TWO?
- Blu-ray - not unless they're really screwed up BR and drives with BR will be incompatible with existing media or something.
Against this, you have the confusion generated by a Mac with two optical drives. I have a Mac with two optical drives (an in-built combo drive, and a FW DVD burner), and it's not terribly elegant. It's fine when reading disks (obviously), but writing them generates some confusion. How sure am I that I'm burning to the right drive? I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying this would be unbelievably un-Mac like. It'd be like the next version of iTunes coming with a menu at the top of its window.
Macs have ALREADY had two optical bays (including twin CD drives). And none of these configs include two drives, you'd only have a second one if you wanted it.
Copying DVD's, nowadays people are backing up their own materials. Most dvd copying would be making backups of your own discs. Burning multiple discs would be a great option as well. And bluray drives will be INCREDIBLY expensive when these machines ship, not to mention who knows how well they will burn cd's and dvd's (assuming that all bluray drives will be burners, none of them readers only). Many people will want to wait and add a bluray or hd-dvd later, especially since nobody knows which will be the winning format.
HecubusPro
Aug 27, 09:56 AM
What makes you say Nintendo sucks so much?
-Zadillo
Because, just as there are Mac fanboys, there are also Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony fanboys. As much as we'd like to think our platform of choice is clearly the best, in all actually, each one has something unique to offer that the other may lack.
Whether we like to believe it or, the same goes for PC vs. Mac, OSX vs. Windows, ATI vs. Nvidia, etc. I've had macs off and on since I was a kid. I've also had several other types of computers other than Windows machines (mostly Commodore systems--man I loved my Amiga 500 with it's upgrade to 1 whole MB of ram :cool:.)
I was first in line to buy the original iMac. I bought it day one. I upgraded it's graphics card, which supposedly was not supposed to be upgradable, so I could play Unreal. Then I began to religiously follow the tragic saga of the Half-Life port to the Mac OS. The guy who was doing it (yes, a one man team), after months of receiving very little support from anyone, eventually threw his hands in the air and gave up. I was distraught, and, as a huge gamer (not fat, just a video game fan :p ), that's when I decided I needed to get a PC with Windows. It was a tough choice, but I knew I had to do it if I wanted to play the latest, greatest PC games. Apple has sorely lacked in porting games to their OS's.
While I did eventually buy a used iBook about 4 or 5 years ago (which I recently sold to help fund my new MBP), I always promised, "I will buy a mac again when I can play any games that a PC can play." Well, now I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm jumping head first into the mac market once more, and I thank the Intel switch for allowing it to happen.
While I know I probably won't be able to respectably play games like Crysis and Unreal Tournament 2007 on my MBP, I've become content with having console systems (Xbox 360, soon Wii, much later PS3 when price drops ;).) At this point in my life, I'm trying to simplify. I'm tired of having the huge tower system and massive monitor taking up so much room in my life, so I decide to go with the MBP. I want to be able to move from my desk to the living room, from the house to work, from state to state, etc. with ease and with all I need computer-wise.
So I'm back and I'm happy to be here. Of course, how I managed to get off on a self-rant from someone responding to a perceived Nintendo insult I have no idea. Sorry about that. :D
Did I say I can't wait to get my MBP? :o
-Zadillo
Because, just as there are Mac fanboys, there are also Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony fanboys. As much as we'd like to think our platform of choice is clearly the best, in all actually, each one has something unique to offer that the other may lack.
Whether we like to believe it or, the same goes for PC vs. Mac, OSX vs. Windows, ATI vs. Nvidia, etc. I've had macs off and on since I was a kid. I've also had several other types of computers other than Windows machines (mostly Commodore systems--man I loved my Amiga 500 with it's upgrade to 1 whole MB of ram :cool:.)
I was first in line to buy the original iMac. I bought it day one. I upgraded it's graphics card, which supposedly was not supposed to be upgradable, so I could play Unreal. Then I began to religiously follow the tragic saga of the Half-Life port to the Mac OS. The guy who was doing it (yes, a one man team), after months of receiving very little support from anyone, eventually threw his hands in the air and gave up. I was distraught, and, as a huge gamer (not fat, just a video game fan :p ), that's when I decided I needed to get a PC with Windows. It was a tough choice, but I knew I had to do it if I wanted to play the latest, greatest PC games. Apple has sorely lacked in porting games to their OS's.
While I did eventually buy a used iBook about 4 or 5 years ago (which I recently sold to help fund my new MBP), I always promised, "I will buy a mac again when I can play any games that a PC can play." Well, now I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I'm jumping head first into the mac market once more, and I thank the Intel switch for allowing it to happen.
While I know I probably won't be able to respectably play games like Crysis and Unreal Tournament 2007 on my MBP, I've become content with having console systems (Xbox 360, soon Wii, much later PS3 when price drops ;).) At this point in my life, I'm trying to simplify. I'm tired of having the huge tower system and massive monitor taking up so much room in my life, so I decide to go with the MBP. I want to be able to move from my desk to the living room, from the house to work, from state to state, etc. with ease and with all I need computer-wise.
So I'm back and I'm happy to be here. Of course, how I managed to get off on a self-rant from someone responding to a perceived Nintendo insult I have no idea. Sorry about that. :D
Did I say I can't wait to get my MBP? :o
shawnce
Aug 7, 09:42 PM
Running the preview now... some nice developer level stuff that I cannot ebelish on however beyond what was talked about in the keynote.
The new Core Animation stuff looks simple yet powerful and will increase the visual effects and feedback that application can do with only minor work on their part.
Also new Xcode Tool capabilities are well... great to have (need to review what is available publicly before I can comment more).
Next spring Apple will have a good answer to Vista with little disruption to end users and developers (unlike Vista).
The new Core Animation stuff looks simple yet powerful and will increase the visual effects and feedback that application can do with only minor work on their part.
Also new Xcode Tool capabilities are well... great to have (need to review what is available publicly before I can comment more).
Next spring Apple will have a good answer to Vista with little disruption to end users and developers (unlike Vista).
Chaszmyr
Aug 15, 01:00 PM
I would have thought that the Final Cut Pro benchmark would have really blown away the G5 - not so much, right?
I couldn't say for sure, but I would guess that the current version of FCP was carefully optimized for the G5, and has not yet undergone the same treatment for Intel chips.
I couldn't say for sure, but I would guess that the current version of FCP was carefully optimized for the G5, and has not yet undergone the same treatment for Intel chips.
chimerical
Nov 28, 07:42 PM
(Did the music companies ask for money for every CD player or Tape Recorder sold? Nope)
Actually, yes. I believe that CD-R/CD-RW blank discs and recorders have had some type of royalties fee added to the price, which gets passed down to us consumers. It's frustrating.
Actually, yes. I believe that CD-R/CD-RW blank discs and recorders have had some type of royalties fee added to the price, which gets passed down to us consumers. It's frustrating.
daneoni
Sep 19, 03:36 AM
PowerBook G5 by the holidays.
hexor
Mar 26, 08:03 AM
There is no way this is a GM. The "reporter" is obviously confused. If it was a GM version that means they would be sending it off for duplication soon. Since WWDC is months away this makes no sense.